New York Times columnist Bret Stephens challenged MSNBC’s Stephanie Ruhle on Vice President Kamala Harris’ apparent strategy to avoid press scrutiny at all costs, and Ruhle worked overtime to defend her.

Both Ruhle and Stephens appeared together on comedian Bill Maher’s show, and the conversation turned to the rapidly approaching presidential election — and Stephens argued that Harris’ refusal to give any real answers on any specific policies was not doing anything to persuade undecided voters like himself.

WATCH:

Bret Stephens asks Stephanie Ruhle why Kamala Harris has not done interviews and stated clearly what her policy positions are. Ruhle responds that ‘We don’t live in Nirvana’:
Bret Stephens: “I’m an undecided voter. I’m not sure I want to vote for Kamala. My fear is that she… pic.twitter.com/y80j8kDIWh

— Eric Abbenante (@EricAbbenante) September 21, 2024

“I’m an undecided voter. I’m never going to vote for Trump, I’m not sure I want to vote for Kamala. My fear is that she doesn’t really have a very good command of what she wants to do as president,” Stephens began. “It would be great for her to sit down with [Maher], or George Stephanopoulos, or you, Stephanie.”

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Stephens went on to raise the topic of the ongoing war between Israel and the terror group Hamas, noting that Harris had not been any more clear about her position on that topic than she had about other issues.

“It’s not too much to ask Kamala, ‘Are you for a Palestinian state, if Hamas is going to run that state?'” he queried.

“If you don’t like her answer, are you going to vote for Trump?” Ruhle replied, suggesting that it didn’t matter who Harris was or what she might do, provided she fulfill the one most important condition: not being Donald Trump. “Kamala Harris is not running for perfect, she is running against Trump. We have two choices. There are some things that you might not know her answer to. In 2024, unlike in 2016, we know exactly what Trump will do, who he is, and the kind of threat he is to democracy.”

“The problem that a lot of people have with Kamala is that we don’t know her answer to anything,” Stephens protested again.

“But you know his answer to everything,” Ruhle pushed back — despite the fact that she herself, during that same appearance, had repeated the false claim that Trump was behind and in favor of implementing The Heritage Foundation’s Project 2025.

“People also are expected to have some idea of what the program that you’re supposed to vote for … I don’t think it’s a lot to ask for her to sit down for a real interview,” he said.

Still, Ruhle continued to defend Harris, suggesting that getting answer out of Kamala Harris was something that only would happen in a perfect world: “When you move to Nirvana, give me your real estate broker’s number, and I’ll be your next door neighbor. We don’t live there.”